I was once – for various reasons – attached to a unit that taught kids with disabilities. Mostly Downs syndrome, but some others, one of which was not only pretty much incapable of speech – maybe even thought – but was also blind pretty much. I asked the person in charge what we were doing for this guy, and they said giving him stimulus to help him achieve his potential. Which was fair enough except of course the potential was very, very limited. So we gave him different things to touch and to listen to – occasionally brought a smile to his face. But that's what we did along with giving the parents a bit of a rest.
And I never saw anyone hit one of the kids at all. Sometimes you had to restrain them when they lost their temper, and they were often really strong. But I was there for whole year and not one of them was ever hit. Some of them I would maintain would be incapable of connecting the hit to the behaviour. Not many but some. It's the crudest form of behaviour modification I can think of.
I was hit when I was a kid, (it was the 50s after all) although my dad was pretty much sparing of the rod. I was – two or three times a year perhaps – caned at school. And contrary to people who say "it never did me any harm", it never did me any damn good. Except to learn how to avoid it and that wasn't necessarily by being good.
My wife taught special needs kids for decades. There can arise situations in which you have to physically restrain a child before he/she harms either himself or others. But, it must be done in a humane manner and limited in duration to avoid hurting the child. The Bible should not be used to determine public policy.
I usually try to avoid these discussions since I don't have kids. I kinda feel the need to make a few points here, so hang in there with me for a moment.
I have been told by people who should know that for some kids, there is no other way than spanking. I have grave concerns about that, since it's hard to know what's been tried, what the actual issue might be, and how the person telling me this got that information. I have always personally felt like I wouldn't make a good parent because I remember how I got spanked as a child and I'm not entirely certain how that's really worked out. (I like to think it hasn't been that bad, but I'm a bit close to it.) I don't like the idea some people seem to have where spanking is the go-to. I don't think spanking is really appropriate in the majority of cases, and certainly not when a child has a developmental disability. I question the wisdom of allowing teachers or administrators to perform such a punishment on students in their care.
I do, however, recognize that children are individuals and there is no licensing system for parenthood. I also wonder why this 'religion of love' always seems to be in such a rush to hurt people for one reason or another, be it spanking kids or toting guns to the war zone. I find it worrying that these lawmakers who appear to be adults seem to think spanking kids needs to happen more often rather than less. It just seems like an excuse to bully kids at some point. At what point do we acknowledge the sheer irony of an adult spanking a child while claiming 'we don't hit'?
I see it this way: If we want our kids to value something, like compassion or love, we as adults need to learn to value it first. Spanking doesn't teach the value of peace or love, it teaches the value of violence so far as I can tell. I don't know if there's a right answer here, but there really do seem to be quite a few wrong ones.
let's call it what it is...BEATING. It is just another form of violence. You beat the living daylights out of a child don't be surprised when they are also violent. IF all a parent or a teacher can come up with is to grab a whip or a belt and beat a small defenseless child then they need to rethink their lives and or profession Honestly I could never figure out..if you beat a child it is praised..if you beat an adult it is a criminal offense..?
Using corporal punishment is a failure of the adults using it to maintain composure, it is not a failure of the child who is trying to learn to control themselves.
If you need to have a looming threat of violence as a classroom management tool, you’ve already failed managing your classroom. As Hemant says, you should not be near a classroom. And if you choose to be a special education teacher with the idea that physical violence is the key to earning respect, you are a horrible person. Children with disabilities and special needs will be even more confused by being beaten , but not surprised. The children that I’ve come across while helping my autistic child grow up have plenty of horror stories of being bullied physically by other students and then blamed for the violent interaction and bullied physically again by teachers and staff.
Children with disabilities are people who may just need more understanding and patience, not less. And children in general are human beings deserving of the same protections against violence than any adult human.
I’m guessing these folks are pro life too. I swear pro-lifers really only want children born so that they have targets weak enough to abuse and murder with their guns.
"he said teachers need the threat of corporal punishment to maintain classroom order"
I would guess a lot of states and countries with less disciplinary problems in their schools would care to disagree.
Look I get that sometimes there may be an absolutely unruly kid. Someone who just will not listen to you. And I get that a degree in teaching math, english, history etc. doesn't especially train you to deal with that. But you stop them from disrupting class by sending them to the counselor...whose degree DOES train them to deal with that. Well assuming the counselor isn't also a fundie christian. If that's the case, I guess you're all (including the kid) SOL.
How? How about: Why should we even CONSIDER scriptures? Whether you want to acknowledge it or not (and we all know you don't), this is a SECULAR government, which recognizes all religion, but favors NONE OF THEM. Why? Because to favor one or another would be to disadvantage the others, and no, that is NOT equitable. This doesn't even mention the fact that corporal punishment has long since been generally deemed to be INEFFECTIVE and in fact, works against reorientation of problem students.
Yeah, yeah, I know; this is Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plain and spanking kids is up there with baseball, hot dogs and apple pie. Maybe we should let them secede... 😔
The United States of America is not in any way shape or form a Christian nation. We have a secular government with a secular constitution, and we had better start define it that way!
Delusional theists need to take your biblical, whatever, and put it where the sun don’t shine.
There is no horror that cannot be, and has not been, justified in the name of religion. Corporal punishment should be illegal for ALL students. The state cannot grant itself permission to commit assault against a minor because they think a magic book justifies it. The Christo-fascist right sickens me.
What beating a child teaches them is that violence is a good way to solve your problems. That it's OK to bully people who are smaller and weaker than you are. And also that they should work harder at not getting caught. None of these things are things I want children learning in school.
I wonder if this legislator was a playground bully as a child?
The only thing that surprises me about this is the child "psychologist" who can't think of a better way of keeping order in a classroom than threatening to hit a child.
I am not one who thinks spanking is inherently evil. I think there are much better ways of behavior modification and that those should be taught in high school parenting classes and reinforced during prenatal parenting classes.
I think many parents spank because that is how they were raised and they don't know other techniques. The only examples they know of of children who weren't spanked are the ones who never received any kind of disciple and run wild.
The bible gives lots of instructions on causing bodily harm to children:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
What the actual f$@k?
I was once – for various reasons – attached to a unit that taught kids with disabilities. Mostly Downs syndrome, but some others, one of which was not only pretty much incapable of speech – maybe even thought – but was also blind pretty much. I asked the person in charge what we were doing for this guy, and they said giving him stimulus to help him achieve his potential. Which was fair enough except of course the potential was very, very limited. So we gave him different things to touch and to listen to – occasionally brought a smile to his face. But that's what we did along with giving the parents a bit of a rest.
And I never saw anyone hit one of the kids at all. Sometimes you had to restrain them when they lost their temper, and they were often really strong. But I was there for whole year and not one of them was ever hit. Some of them I would maintain would be incapable of connecting the hit to the behaviour. Not many but some. It's the crudest form of behaviour modification I can think of.
I was hit when I was a kid, (it was the 50s after all) although my dad was pretty much sparing of the rod. I was – two or three times a year perhaps – caned at school. And contrary to people who say "it never did me any harm", it never did me any damn good. Except to learn how to avoid it and that wasn't necessarily by being good.
A child psychiatrist who recommends corporal punishment should have his license revoked and forbidden to obtain it in another state.
Religion poisons everything!! Their superstition should NEVER be permitted to define or influence laws.
My wife taught special needs kids for decades. There can arise situations in which you have to physically restrain a child before he/she harms either himself or others. But, it must be done in a humane manner and limited in duration to avoid hurting the child. The Bible should not be used to determine public policy.
I usually try to avoid these discussions since I don't have kids. I kinda feel the need to make a few points here, so hang in there with me for a moment.
I have been told by people who should know that for some kids, there is no other way than spanking. I have grave concerns about that, since it's hard to know what's been tried, what the actual issue might be, and how the person telling me this got that information. I have always personally felt like I wouldn't make a good parent because I remember how I got spanked as a child and I'm not entirely certain how that's really worked out. (I like to think it hasn't been that bad, but I'm a bit close to it.) I don't like the idea some people seem to have where spanking is the go-to. I don't think spanking is really appropriate in the majority of cases, and certainly not when a child has a developmental disability. I question the wisdom of allowing teachers or administrators to perform such a punishment on students in their care.
I do, however, recognize that children are individuals and there is no licensing system for parenthood. I also wonder why this 'religion of love' always seems to be in such a rush to hurt people for one reason or another, be it spanking kids or toting guns to the war zone. I find it worrying that these lawmakers who appear to be adults seem to think spanking kids needs to happen more often rather than less. It just seems like an excuse to bully kids at some point. At what point do we acknowledge the sheer irony of an adult spanking a child while claiming 'we don't hit'?
I see it this way: If we want our kids to value something, like compassion or love, we as adults need to learn to value it first. Spanking doesn't teach the value of peace or love, it teaches the value of violence so far as I can tell. I don't know if there's a right answer here, but there really do seem to be quite a few wrong ones.
let's call it what it is...BEATING. It is just another form of violence. You beat the living daylights out of a child don't be surprised when they are also violent. IF all a parent or a teacher can come up with is to grab a whip or a belt and beat a small defenseless child then they need to rethink their lives and or profession Honestly I could never figure out..if you beat a child it is praised..if you beat an adult it is a criminal offense..?
Using corporal punishment is a failure of the adults using it to maintain composure, it is not a failure of the child who is trying to learn to control themselves.
If you need to have a looming threat of violence as a classroom management tool, you’ve already failed managing your classroom. As Hemant says, you should not be near a classroom. And if you choose to be a special education teacher with the idea that physical violence is the key to earning respect, you are a horrible person. Children with disabilities and special needs will be even more confused by being beaten , but not surprised. The children that I’ve come across while helping my autistic child grow up have plenty of horror stories of being bullied physically by other students and then blamed for the violent interaction and bullied physically again by teachers and staff.
Children with disabilities are people who may just need more understanding and patience, not less. And children in general are human beings deserving of the same protections against violence than any adult human.
I’m guessing these folks are pro life too. I swear pro-lifers really only want children born so that they have targets weak enough to abuse and murder with their guns.
"he said teachers need the threat of corporal punishment to maintain classroom order"
I would guess a lot of states and countries with less disciplinary problems in their schools would care to disagree.
Look I get that sometimes there may be an absolutely unruly kid. Someone who just will not listen to you. And I get that a degree in teaching math, english, history etc. doesn't especially train you to deal with that. But you stop them from disrupting class by sending them to the counselor...whose degree DOES train them to deal with that. Well assuming the counselor isn't also a fundie christian. If that's the case, I guess you're all (including the kid) SOL.
𝑆𝑜 ℎ𝑜𝑤 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑟𝑒𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑐𝑖𝑙𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑏𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑠𝑐𝑟𝑖𝑝𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑒𝑠…?
How? How about: Why should we even CONSIDER scriptures? Whether you want to acknowledge it or not (and we all know you don't), this is a SECULAR government, which recognizes all religion, but favors NONE OF THEM. Why? Because to favor one or another would be to disadvantage the others, and no, that is NOT equitable. This doesn't even mention the fact that corporal punishment has long since been generally deemed to be INEFFECTIVE and in fact, works against reorientation of problem students.
Yeah, yeah, I know; this is Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plain and spanking kids is up there with baseball, hot dogs and apple pie. Maybe we should let them secede... 😔
The United States of America is not in any way shape or form a Christian nation. We have a secular government with a secular constitution, and we had better start define it that way!
Delusional theists need to take your biblical, whatever, and put it where the sun don’t shine.
There is no horror that cannot be, and has not been, justified in the name of religion. Corporal punishment should be illegal for ALL students. The state cannot grant itself permission to commit assault against a minor because they think a magic book justifies it. The Christo-fascist right sickens me.
What beating a child teaches them is that violence is a good way to solve your problems. That it's OK to bully people who are smaller and weaker than you are. And also that they should work harder at not getting caught. None of these things are things I want children learning in school.
I wonder if this legislator was a playground bully as a child?
I like this young lady.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiSFB-h_Rss
The only thing that surprises me about this is the child "psychologist" who can't think of a better way of keeping order in a classroom than threatening to hit a child.
I am not one who thinks spanking is inherently evil. I think there are much better ways of behavior modification and that those should be taught in high school parenting classes and reinforced during prenatal parenting classes.
I think many parents spank because that is how they were raised and they don't know other techniques. The only examples they know of of children who weren't spanked are the ones who never received any kind of disciple and run wild.
The bible gives lots of instructions on causing bodily harm to children:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”