And people wonder why I think that reconciliation is impossible. Why I think Republicans would be quite happy to put people like me in interment camps. I live in this benighted state. I vote. And for my trouble, I get this bill. Not programs to help homeless youth, no I have to donate to a private organization to do that. Not programs to provide children with cancer free medical care, I have to donate to a private organization to do that. Support our schools, bake sales and car washes.
Ms Noble is trying really hard not to just say "but Jesus, dammit!" isn't she? I can't imagine having to try to deal with people like this in a professional setting, kudos to the man for being so civil.
Christian apologists would have us believe the Ten Commandments are the bedrock of western civilization, even though all but two of them would be unconstitutional should anyone try writing them into law. Conservative Christians NEVER stop trying to mark their territory in the public schools, paid for with everyone's tax dollars. Their obsession with indoctrinating children before they've reached the age of reason speaks directly to just how weak the Christian message is. Neither this country nor the wider world faces a problem that has a religious solution.
Not the Ten Commandments. Never called the Ten Commandments. Stone tablets were smashed by the imaginary Moses and never put into use. The "real" 10C are found in Exodus 34 and called the Ten Commandments in Verse 28. They bear little resemblance to the Exodus 20 set.
Talarico does very well here to point out the problems with the Ten Commandments, but he doesn't go far enough, mostly because he himself is a believer and subscribes to those commandments. The blunt fact is that the United States is a secular nation. Representative Noble is mistaken (probably purposefully so) in stating that the Ten Commandments (and by extension, the bible) is foundational to the United States. All she would have to do is look at Article VI, Paragraph 3, where it states that:
Never mind the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. She compounds her own apparent ignorance by stating, “If we don't know where we've been, how do we know where we're going?” Clearly, she DOESN'T know where we've been, because she treats the bible as foundational to the Constitution, which it is NOT. “It is my intention to keep this bill 'clean,'” she states, which basically tells me that she has no real interest in discussing the matter, and being that this is Texas, she will likely have her way.
The real shame here is that there wasn't an open debate on the issue, preferably a fact-checked debate, because the proposed bill would fall of its own weight. Then, too, I'd like to own a Porsche Cayman and have a state-of-the-art sound system to listen to, but that ain't happening any time soon, either. At least Talarico got his shots in, and maybe it registered with SOMEONE.
I read many of the responses to his Tweets. It was deeply disturbing how many of the comments fully supported the ten commandments posters in the classrooms, and attacking him for his opposition to this bill. From the comments it is obvious to me that far, far too many in this country are beyond hope when it comes to true democratic ideals and Democracy itself. I comfort myself by reminding myself that these comments came from Twitter users, who apparently mostly hold right wing views, and hopefully are not the views of a majority in this country.
Talarico's effort is heroic, and for the foreseeable future, it's futile. However, that's not a reason for him to give up. This is a generations-long struggle. Eee-ven-tu-alll-yyy, water wears down stone.
This is reminiscent of Galileo versus the Vatican Cardinals. He believed that reason should persuade, but they believed that authority must dominate. That's like two people speaking utterly different languages. The Cardinals didn't actually give a rat's ass about the arrangement of the Solar System, they only cared about protecting their power. Some of them already privately thought the heliocentric model made sense, BUT they also thought that their Earth-centric model helped to support their tightly centralized authority, and it was far more important that no usurper, even with empirical observations would be tolerated.
You can present the most eloquent, rational, reasonable and logical arguments to the Republican legislators, but it'll all just bounce off like bb's off a battleship. They don't really care about education, or managing kids in class, or student safety, or good citizenship, or the moral well-being of the public, or any of that bullshit. It's all about, and ONLY about making sure their authority dominates, making sure they GET THEIR WAY even if their way isn't the best way.
But take heart: Over many years, the heliocentric model was slowly, quietly accepted only as a hypothetical idea, then as a possible idea, then a plausible idea, then as the idea that made the most sense, and finally, without any fanfare or any big deal acknowledgement, it was accepted as settled truth. 350 years after Galileo died, the Pope finally got around to apologizing for their reprehensible persecution of him.
Texas probably won't take three and a half centuries to grow out of its theocratic obsession, but it won't be for the next couple of generations, and it will happen slowly, quietly, without any fanfare or big deal acknowledgement.
“TALARICO: And tell me about—because every time on this committee that we try to teach students values like empathy or kindness, we're told we can't because that's the parents role. Every time on this committee that we try to teach basic sex education to keep our kids safe, we're told that's the parents role.
But now you're putting religious commandments—literal Commandments—in our classrooms, and you're saying that's the state's role. Why is that not the parents role?
NOBLE: [Long pause] That's really an interesting rabbit trail that you've gone on with that. Because, really, what we're talking about here is a historical, foundational document to our nation's education history and our judicial history. Those other things are great and interesting, but they're not foundational to us, educationally and judicially.”
Empathy and kindness are not foundational or historical the the United States? That’s fucked up. But somehow I feel like it’s true. Maybe we can move past the past and make things better by dropping the shit that keeps us from being empathetic and kind and just go with those values instead.
“TALARICO: Would you be comfortable with adding language to receive parental consent from all the parents of students in the classroom before putting it up?
NOBLE: I would not. I am, again, gonna keep it clean as it came over.
TALARICO: So you don't want parental consent when it comes to students receiving religious commandments?
NOBLE: I don’t believe that… Again, I think that these are foundational to being a good citizen and being a good member of a classroom. I know that our teachers are more and more and more having to fight for classroom management over the behavior of students. And I don't think that these Commandments would, in any way… I think these Commandments would help with that classroom management need.“
Tell me specifically how these posters will affect classroom management. What will plastering every wall with banal “thou shall nots” that don’t even really apply to children of any age, or that children even understand, do to make them good citizens or students? How does keeping the sabbath holy teach decent study habits? How does do not commit adultery keep kids from getting antzy from sitting so long? Maybe respect your mother and father keeps the kids from acting out, but there are better and more effective ways to express “respect your elders” than including the whole Ten Commandments.
Honestly, if as a teacher, you are having this much trouble with classroom management, it’s a problem with your incompetence not the students ignorance of ancient sheepherders attempt at morality.
Cite the historical foundations of the Ten Commandments. Tell me where they n the constitution they are written. Where were the Ten Commandments placed before the Hollywood marketing campaign? Where in the other foundation documents did the Ten Commandments get mentioned as part of our justice system or any branch of our government?
They were not there. Full stop.
The education system, well the education system that the masses were given, the wealthy had a different program altogether, only used the Bible as textbooks because it was readily available during the early part of US history. Books were a luxury that not many could access, not even for a classroom. But pretty much every family had a Bible, and the churches that housed the school during the week had many. Do not pretend that the limited access to reading material was by any means an approval of the content. Especially by the deist founding fathers.
"NOBLE: I don’t believe that… Again, I think that these are foundational to being a good citizen and being a good member of a classroom."
Oh really? Sir, do we have a problem with kids committing adultery in our classrooms? Are they spending their time making graven images instead of doing assignments? Are they stealing in class? Murdering? Are they coveting their neighbor's ox instead of doing the assigned reading? Is it the school board's contention that students must be prevented from doing homework on Sundays?
I expect some kids swear. But other than that, the 10C's are at best irrelevant to classroom behavior.
In addition to everything else, it's now also come out that Nazi fanboy billionaire Harlan Crow 𝘢𝘭𝘴𝘰 paid for his grandnephew's private school tuition. Is there anything in Clarence's life at this point that Crow 𝘩𝘢𝘴𝘯'𝘵 paid for?
The set that was on the stone tablets that Moses destroyed or the set that actually (supposedly) made it into the Ark of the Covenant and is therefore the “real” set?
5. “The first offspring from every womb belongs to me”
6. Rest on the seventh day
7. Celebrate the Feast of Weeks
8. No leavened bread during Passover
9. Bring the first fruits of the soil to the Lord
10. “You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk”
The chapter ends with these words: “And [Moses] wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” This is the first time this label is used in the Bible.
You want to display the Ten Commandments in public? Go for it, but put up this list. It’s the official list, after all.
How long before the government issues travel advisories for Texas since it's being run by religious nuts who want to kill children with guns, worship unborn fetuses, and turn schools into Christian indoctrination camps?
Slavery was foundational.
Women not being allowed to vote was foundational.
And people wonder why I think that reconciliation is impossible. Why I think Republicans would be quite happy to put people like me in interment camps. I live in this benighted state. I vote. And for my trouble, I get this bill. Not programs to help homeless youth, no I have to donate to a private organization to do that. Not programs to provide children with cancer free medical care, I have to donate to a private organization to do that. Support our schools, bake sales and car washes.
Ms Noble is trying really hard not to just say "but Jesus, dammit!" isn't she? I can't imagine having to try to deal with people like this in a professional setting, kudos to the man for being so civil.
Christian apologists would have us believe the Ten Commandments are the bedrock of western civilization, even though all but two of them would be unconstitutional should anyone try writing them into law. Conservative Christians NEVER stop trying to mark their territory in the public schools, paid for with everyone's tax dollars. Their obsession with indoctrinating children before they've reached the age of reason speaks directly to just how weak the Christian message is. Neither this country nor the wider world faces a problem that has a religious solution.
Not the Ten Commandments. Never called the Ten Commandments. Stone tablets were smashed by the imaginary Moses and never put into use. The "real" 10C are found in Exodus 34 and called the Ten Commandments in Verse 28. They bear little resemblance to the Exodus 20 set.
Xtians don't know the contents of their own book.
Talarico does very well here to point out the problems with the Ten Commandments, but he doesn't go far enough, mostly because he himself is a believer and subscribes to those commandments. The blunt fact is that the United States is a secular nation. Representative Noble is mistaken (probably purposefully so) in stating that the Ten Commandments (and by extension, the bible) is foundational to the United States. All she would have to do is look at Article VI, Paragraph 3, where it states that:
... 𝑛𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑡𝑒𝑠𝑡 𝑠ℎ𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑏𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑞𝑢𝑖𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑎𝑛𝑦 𝑜𝑓𝑓𝑖𝑐𝑒 𝑜𝑟 𝑝𝑢𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐 𝑡𝑟𝑢𝑠𝑡 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑈𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑆𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑠.
Never mind the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. She compounds her own apparent ignorance by stating, “If we don't know where we've been, how do we know where we're going?” Clearly, she DOESN'T know where we've been, because she treats the bible as foundational to the Constitution, which it is NOT. “It is my intention to keep this bill 'clean,'” she states, which basically tells me that she has no real interest in discussing the matter, and being that this is Texas, she will likely have her way.
The real shame here is that there wasn't an open debate on the issue, preferably a fact-checked debate, because the proposed bill would fall of its own weight. Then, too, I'd like to own a Porsche Cayman and have a state-of-the-art sound system to listen to, but that ain't happening any time soon, either. At least Talarico got his shots in, and maybe it registered with SOMEONE.
Sadly, no one in that audience.
I read many of the responses to his Tweets. It was deeply disturbing how many of the comments fully supported the ten commandments posters in the classrooms, and attacking him for his opposition to this bill. From the comments it is obvious to me that far, far too many in this country are beyond hope when it comes to true democratic ideals and Democracy itself. I comfort myself by reminding myself that these comments came from Twitter users, who apparently mostly hold right wing views, and hopefully are not the views of a majority in this country.
As a Texan I love to see it, but I hate that he’s basically talking at an immovable object.
Talarico's effort is heroic, and for the foreseeable future, it's futile. However, that's not a reason for him to give up. This is a generations-long struggle. Eee-ven-tu-alll-yyy, water wears down stone.
This is reminiscent of Galileo versus the Vatican Cardinals. He believed that reason should persuade, but they believed that authority must dominate. That's like two people speaking utterly different languages. The Cardinals didn't actually give a rat's ass about the arrangement of the Solar System, they only cared about protecting their power. Some of them already privately thought the heliocentric model made sense, BUT they also thought that their Earth-centric model helped to support their tightly centralized authority, and it was far more important that no usurper, even with empirical observations would be tolerated.
You can present the most eloquent, rational, reasonable and logical arguments to the Republican legislators, but it'll all just bounce off like bb's off a battleship. They don't really care about education, or managing kids in class, or student safety, or good citizenship, or the moral well-being of the public, or any of that bullshit. It's all about, and ONLY about making sure their authority dominates, making sure they GET THEIR WAY even if their way isn't the best way.
But take heart: Over many years, the heliocentric model was slowly, quietly accepted only as a hypothetical idea, then as a possible idea, then a plausible idea, then as the idea that made the most sense, and finally, without any fanfare or any big deal acknowledgement, it was accepted as settled truth. 350 years after Galileo died, the Pope finally got around to apologizing for their reprehensible persecution of him.
Texas probably won't take three and a half centuries to grow out of its theocratic obsession, but it won't be for the next couple of generations, and it will happen slowly, quietly, without any fanfare or big deal acknowledgement.
PERSEVERE.
“TALARICO: And tell me about—because every time on this committee that we try to teach students values like empathy or kindness, we're told we can't because that's the parents role. Every time on this committee that we try to teach basic sex education to keep our kids safe, we're told that's the parents role.
But now you're putting religious commandments—literal Commandments—in our classrooms, and you're saying that's the state's role. Why is that not the parents role?
NOBLE: [Long pause] That's really an interesting rabbit trail that you've gone on with that. Because, really, what we're talking about here is a historical, foundational document to our nation's education history and our judicial history. Those other things are great and interesting, but they're not foundational to us, educationally and judicially.”
Empathy and kindness are not foundational or historical the the United States? That’s fucked up. But somehow I feel like it’s true. Maybe we can move past the past and make things better by dropping the shit that keeps us from being empathetic and kind and just go with those values instead.
“TALARICO: Would you be comfortable with adding language to receive parental consent from all the parents of students in the classroom before putting it up?
NOBLE: I would not. I am, again, gonna keep it clean as it came over.
TALARICO: So you don't want parental consent when it comes to students receiving religious commandments?
NOBLE: I don’t believe that… Again, I think that these are foundational to being a good citizen and being a good member of a classroom. I know that our teachers are more and more and more having to fight for classroom management over the behavior of students. And I don't think that these Commandments would, in any way… I think these Commandments would help with that classroom management need.“
Tell me specifically how these posters will affect classroom management. What will plastering every wall with banal “thou shall nots” that don’t even really apply to children of any age, or that children even understand, do to make them good citizens or students? How does keeping the sabbath holy teach decent study habits? How does do not commit adultery keep kids from getting antzy from sitting so long? Maybe respect your mother and father keeps the kids from acting out, but there are better and more effective ways to express “respect your elders” than including the whole Ten Commandments.
Honestly, if as a teacher, you are having this much trouble with classroom management, it’s a problem with your incompetence not the students ignorance of ancient sheepherders attempt at morality.
Cite the historical foundations of the Ten Commandments. Tell me where they n the constitution they are written. Where were the Ten Commandments placed before the Hollywood marketing campaign? Where in the other foundation documents did the Ten Commandments get mentioned as part of our justice system or any branch of our government?
They were not there. Full stop.
The education system, well the education system that the masses were given, the wealthy had a different program altogether, only used the Bible as textbooks because it was readily available during the early part of US history. Books were a luxury that not many could access, not even for a classroom. But pretty much every family had a Bible, and the churches that housed the school during the week had many. Do not pretend that the limited access to reading material was by any means an approval of the content. Especially by the deist founding fathers.
"NOBLE: I don’t believe that… Again, I think that these are foundational to being a good citizen and being a good member of a classroom."
Oh really? Sir, do we have a problem with kids committing adultery in our classrooms? Are they spending their time making graven images instead of doing assignments? Are they stealing in class? Murdering? Are they coveting their neighbor's ox instead of doing the assigned reading? Is it the school board's contention that students must be prevented from doing homework on Sundays?
I expect some kids swear. But other than that, the 10C's are at best irrelevant to classroom behavior.
OT- Is there any limit to Uncle Thomas' corruption? Signs point to 𝘯𝘰: https://www.propublica.org/article/clarence-thomas-harlan-crow-private-school-tuition-scotus
In addition to everything else, it's now also come out that Nazi fanboy billionaire Harlan Crow 𝘢𝘭𝘴𝘰 paid for his grandnephew's private school tuition. Is there anything in Clarence's life at this point that Crow 𝘩𝘢𝘴𝘯'𝘵 paid for?
As usual, the question is: which ten?
The set that was on the stone tablets that Moses destroyed or the set that actually (supposedly) made it into the Ark of the Covenant and is therefore the “real” set?
The real ten commandments:
1. Make no covenant with the Canaanite tribes
2. Destroy their altars
3. Make no idols (“molten gods”)
4. Observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread
5. “The first offspring from every womb belongs to me”
6. Rest on the seventh day
7. Celebrate the Feast of Weeks
8. No leavened bread during Passover
9. Bring the first fruits of the soil to the Lord
10. “You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk”
The chapter ends with these words: “And [Moses] wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” This is the first time this label is used in the Bible.
You want to display the Ten Commandments in public? Go for it, but put up this list. It’s the official list, after all.
https://onlysky.media/bseidensticker/the-irrelevant-wisdom-of-the-ten-commandments/
How long before the government issues travel advisories for Texas since it's being run by religious nuts who want to kill children with guns, worship unborn fetuses, and turn schools into Christian indoctrination camps?